On Monday, former President Barack Obama and musician Bruce Springsteen released the first two episodes of an eight-episode podcast collaboration called “Renegades: Born in the USA” on Spotify.
Springsteen and Obama have been friends for more than a decade, and the podcast introduces them, as Spotify said, “in a deep and revealing conversation” that took place at Springsteen’s recording studio in New Jersey.
“On the surface, Bruce and I don’t have much in common,” Obama said in the introduction to the first episode. “He’s a white man from a small town in Jersey. I’m a mixed-race black man born in Hawaii, with a childhood that took me around the world. He’s a rock n ‘roll icon. I’m a lawyer and a politician – not so cool. “
He continued: “But over the years, what we have found is that we have a shared sensitivity. About work, about family and about America.”
The first two episodes of “Renegades” are mainly focused on race and racism. Obama talked about feeling like a stranger in Hawaii. Springsteen discussed the racial makeup of Freehold, New Jersey and integrated neighborhoods. Both spoke about the life and legacy of civil rights activist John Lewis.
But a topic that already goes through “Renegades”, and is scheduled to be discussed specifically in a future episode of the podcast, is how modern masculinity can and should be – a topic that was brought to the cultural vanguard during Trump’s presidency, which it was, in many ways, guided by its own narrow and pugilistic definition of masculinity.
Watch this section of the first episode of the podcast, in which Springsteen and Obama discussed that their wives, Patti Scialfa and Michelle Obama, got along.
“Michelle was very pleased with the insights you had about your failures as a man,” Obama said with a laugh. “And after we left dinner, a party or a conversation, she would say, ‘Do you see how Bruce understands his flaws and came to terms with them in a way you didn’t? Uh, should you spend any more time with Bruce, because he’s working. So there was also a little bit of the feeling that I needed to be trained on how to be a suitable husband. ”
Springsteen, also laughing, replies, “It was a pleasure.”
Some fundamental principles of your shared understanding of masculinity already come to light through this simple exchange: respecting your spouse as a partner, being aware and assuming your limitations and continuing to work to become a better man and husband, which often means eliminating some of the most toxic pitfalls of American manhood.
Both men discussed the concept of toxic masculinity before. During a 2016 interview for NPR’s “Fresh Air”, Springsteen detailed how he had to abandon the idea that there is a unique way to be recognized as a man.
“You are young and you are always looking for your youth,” he said. “Are you trying to figure out what that means? There is a lot of pressure on young people to resolve this and we tend to gravitate towards one-dimensional iconography when it comes to what it means to be an adult man.”
He also clarified to “Fresh Air” host Terry Gross that his initial persona on stage was just that.
“If you just look at it from the outside, you are a handsome alpha male, which is a little ironic, because personally it was never exactly me,” said Springsteen. “I think I created my private stage personality from my father’s life and maybe even built it to suit him to some degree.”
Several years later, during a 2019 conference for his My Brother’s Keeper initiative in Oakland, Obama spoke about how racism plays a role in the perpetuation of toxic masculinity.
“Racism historically in this society sends a message that you are ‘less than’,” said Obama. “We feel that we have to compensate by exaggerating the stereotyped ways that men should act. And this is a trap.”
Later in the presentation, he said that “the notion that somehow defining yourself as a man depends on you being able to put someone else down – able to dominate – that’s an old view.”
But it is a vision that defined Trump’s presidency.
From dismissing his rhetoric “grab them by the pussy” as “dressing room talk”, to talking about their literal testosterone count, to portraying the use of a mask to prevent the spread of the new coronavirus as a form of weakness – and, in then supposedly wanting to rip his shirt to reveal a Superman shirt after leaving Walter Reed after he was hospitalized for coronavirus – Trump’s form of masculinity was a kind of cartoonish machismo.
“Donald’s masculinity is a cartoon version of masculinity – it’s all bravado,” author Tom Digby told Salon in 2020. “Donald is bravado; he never shows real bravery. Of his reliance on fake bone spurs to prevent war from Vietnam to his current attempt to escape political defeat by sabotaging the postal service, Donald has consistently shown a total lack of courage. ”
However, as Matthew Rozsa of Salon reported in January, a recent study found that support for a dominant style of masculinity could be used to predict someone’s love for Trump. “Trump strategically used rhetoric in his 2016 presidential campaign and during his presidency that evoked elements of hegemonic masculinity and tried to position him as the ‘ideal man,” Schermerhorn told Salon at the time.
These limited views on what masculinity entails – stoicism, virility, domination – can contribute to the fear of social and political movements that would overthrow the current gender, race and class status quos, which can result in aggression and violence. Through these lenses, it is no surprise that the Trump presidency culminated in an insurrection attempt on the United States Capitol.
“Renegades: Born in the USA” promises to be a balm for that. At a time when the country is so fragmented, due in large part to a president who refused to admit he was wrong, it is refreshing to hear two men – who represent the United States in their own ways – argue with enthusiasm about how overcome your shortcomings and get better on the other side. As Springsteen puts it on the podcast, to change, you need to let go of the ego and “empty yourself and become a recipient” for empathy.
Episodes of “Renegades: Born in the USA” will be released weekly on Mondays on Spotify.