President Donald Trump’s personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani told ABC News that he is working as part of the president’s defense team in his next impeachment trial – and that he is prepared to argue that the president’s allegations of widespread electoral fraud do not constitute incitement to violence because the – debunked claims are true.
“I’m involved now … that’s what I’m working on,” said Giuliani to White House correspondent, head of ABC News, Jonathan Karl.
A few hours later, Giuliani – who led the president’s efforts to reverse the results of the 2020 elections – was located at the White House.
Giuliani’s involvement in defending Trump’s impeachment occurs because many of the lawyers involved in the president’s first impeachment, including White House lawyer Pat Cipollone and his deputies and outside lawyers Jay Sekulow and Jane and Marty Raskin, do not plan to return for the second judgment.
Along with Trump, Giuliani spoke at the January 6 rally before the attack on the Capitol, where he urged the crowd to engage in “trial by combat”. Five people, including a Capitol Police officer, died when pro-Trump supporters marched to the Capitol after the rally and forced their way into the building in an effort to prevent members of Congress from certifying the presidential election for the president-elect. Joe Biden.
Giuliani said there are “different opinions” about how the president should approach his second impeachment.
The former New York mayor said that, in his defense of the president, he would present allegations of widespread electoral fraud that were raised – and rejected – in dozens of courts across the country.
“They basically claimed that anytime [Trump] it says that electoral fraud, electoral fraud – or me, or anyone else – is inciting violence; that these words are words of struggle because they are totally false, “he said.” Well, if you can prove it to be true, or at least true enough to be a legitimate point of view, then they are no longer words of struggle. “
He also said he personally believed that Trump should act to end the trial immediately.
“If they decide to bring him to trial, he must move to reject the impeachment as completely illegal. That was the only impeachment ever made in two or three days,” Giuliani told ABC News. “We would say to the court: ‘Now you are allowing in the future, basically in two days, Congress can simply challenge everything you want.”
In a historic move last week, the House of Representatives voted to impeach Trump, with all Democrats along with 10 Republican members voting to accuse the president of inciting supporters to invade the U.S. Capitol.
“The President of the United States has incited this insurrection, this armed rebellion, against our common country. He must go,” said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., At the House floor. “He is a clear and present danger to the nation that we all love.”
Representative Liz Cheney, the third Republican in the House leadership, was among the 10 Republicans who voted to nominate the President. Cheney issued a forceful statement condemning the president’s actions before the vote, writing: “The president of the United States called this mob, assembled the mob and lit the flame of this attack. Everything that followed was his work. None of this would have happened without the president. “
Giuliani ruled out the validity of the only impeachment article accusing Trump of inciting violence against the government, claiming that the president’s speech did not incite the riot because there was a delay between the speech and the attack.
“Basically, if [incitement] it will happen, it has to happen immediately, “he said.” You would have to have people running away, you would have to have people running away from that frozen speech, straight to the Capitol. And this is basically incitement, “said Giuliani.
If the attempt to reject the impeachment article fails, which is likely, Giuliani said he would not dismiss the president’s testimony. Trump’s lawyers objected to him testifying during his first impeachment trial, but Giuliani says the situation is different and that the impeachment defense is “much more direct”.
“You always make that decision at the last minute,” said Giuliani. “As a lawyer, I would not be as strongly opposed to your testimony as I was then.”
Sources close to the president recently told ABC News that Trump was increasingly irritated with Giuliani and did not receive his calls, but now he still seems very involved in discussions about how to deal with the impeachment trial.
One of the big lingering questions about Trump’s final days in office is what pardons he can grant and whether he will try to forgive himself, something Trump told advisers he would like to do, although no president has ever done so. White House lawyer Pat Cipollone advised Trump against personal forgiveness, in part because he does not think such a pardon would stand in court, according to sources familiar with the talks.
Giuliani declined to say what advice he gave the president about forgiveness, but told ABC News that his personal opinion is that this is perfectly justified.
“I think any lawyer would have to say that there is nothing in the Constitution that allows it. There is nothing in the Constitution that forbids it. The clear language of the Constitution does not limit who we can forgive,” said Giuliani. “I think there is a justification for this because of the atmosphere we are in? Practical justification? Certainly.”
Giuliani dismissed the concerns of some Trump advisers that a forgiveness of himself would make Trump more vulnerable to future civil suits because he would be seen as an admission of guilt.
“I mean, your legal life is going to be complicated, no matter what,” Giuliani told ABC News. “Perhaps because I am more of a criminal lawyer than a civil lawyer, I prefer my civil life to be complicated than my criminal life.”