I would not call exactly what is happening collapse, perhaps more than a collective moment of clarity. From now on R / Reddit scavengers There is an intense and very serious discussion on the $ 10,000 tier 2 driver assistance package that Tesla calls “Full Self-Driving” (FSD) – specifically, if the features that Tesla and Elon Musk started to promise in 2016 will actually exist, and what kind of legal exposure Tesla has if it doesn’t comply. People invested real money and still didn’t get what they expected, which led to these difficult conversations.
The original poster said they were motivated to start the topic because of The description of Ford’s public relations representative, Mike Levine, of Tesla’s “FSD” system as “vaporware”, which generated a lot of debate about the status of “FSD” as vaporware or not within the Tesla community.
See how the poster explains this:
Seriously: What is Tesla’s exposure if FSD doesn’t get into the owner’s hands?
This may not be the right forum, but I am curious to see if anyone has done a semi-academic study on Tesla’s legal and financial exposure and perhaps Elon himself if the FSD continues to pressure? I understand that it is a complicated issue because Tesla itself is not very accessible and the reasons for pushing can vary enormously, from bugs to government intervention.
I am often punished by other owners for having a serious rather than an optimistic view of the company, but it seems to me that FSD pre-sales are a contractual obligation for a specific set of resources and that at some point the failure to keep these promises is a breach of contract subject not only to refunds, but perhaps to penalties and other legal actions
This is a totally valid question to ask, especially if you have paid out ten thousand (plus the cost of the car) for a set of technological resources that is yet to be seen. The OP is not only concerned with this; they are also concerned about Tesla’s potential liability as a company if it fails to deliver on its “FSD” promises.
There’s also a lot of talk about exactly what Tesla really promises when you pre-order “FSD”, although it really shouldn’t cause as much debate, as Tesla’s own website presents this very clearly:
“All new Tesla cars have the necessary hardware in the future for fully autonomous driving in almost all circumstances. The system is designed to make short and long distance trips without any action required by the person in the driver’s seat.
All you have to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the presumed destination or just home if there is nothing on the calendar. Your Tesla will discover the ideal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts and handle densely crowded highways with high-speed cars. When you arrive at your destination, simply exit at the entrance and your car will enter the parking search mode, automatically search for a parking space and park. A tap on your phone calls you back.
The future use of these resources without supervision depends on obtaining reliability far superior to that of human drivers, as demonstrated by billions of kilometers of experience, as well as on regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these autonomous driving features are introduced, your car will be continuously updated through wireless software updates. “
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This sounds like level 5 full autonomy, with descriptions like “The system is designed to be able to make short and long trips without any action required by the person in the driver’s seat” and “All you have to do is get in and tell your car where to go.”
The system is nowhere near that yet.
Other parts of the Tesla website divide “FSD” into seven distinct modules:
Many of the responses are suggesting that class action lawsuits may be possible, despite Tesla’s legal disclaimers, in part because Elon Musk’s tweets and other comments about the “FSD” capabilities and timeline make many very specific claims:
“A big and fat collective action. Tesla’s disclaimers do not protect them from legal action, especially due to Elon’s tweets. “
An example of Elon’s tweet could be this, from 2018:
Okay, he hedged “probably” there, but in this earnings call for the fourth quarter of 2019, he said
“This year we will have a completely autonomous management. The car will be able to meet you in a parking lot, pick you up, take you to your destination without intervention this year. I’m sure of it. This is not a question mark. It will be essentially safe to fall asleep and wake up at your destination at the end of next year ”
Yes, you may not sleep on your Tesla yet.
The mention of “regulators” in the tweet above is also notable, because of the frequency with which the concept of regulatory delays appears to arise when Tesla talks about “FSD”.
That’s it mentioned in the Reddit discussion several times, and the idea that regulatory issues are what is preventing the “FSD” is suggested on the Tesla website, at the beginning of a video showing the capabilities of the “FSD”:
The problem is, as it is also mentioned in the Reddit topic, there are currently no federal regulations on autonomous vehicles. Some states have regulations, but many of those states, including Florida and Michigan, allow self-driving vehicles to be driven on public roads. Tennessee still has legislation forbidding local governments to ban AVs.
If anything is preventing the “FSD” from being delivered, it is not the government.
What makes this topic interesting is that it is a good reminder that, as much as we talk about the hardcore and cultured Tesla Stans, true owners are by no means a monolithic block.
This topic seems like a lot of smart people with disposable income who want to see autonomous vehicles coming to the market and who have made an expensive and hopeful decision to trust what they were told would come. Now they’re not so sure.
Of course, ardent Tesla advocates are also there, even those who seem to have a reasonably clear view of the situation:
“I agree that Elon has been overly optimistic about the state of Full Self Driving. However, it is clear to me (or at least it was) that I was paying for a set of really cool driver automation features with an absolutely killer ADAS with the potential to get even more driver automation up to L5 when it becomes available.
I think the heartburn around this resource really comes from the name of the resource. FSD and Autopilot are extremely optimistic names for what they currently provide. But that’s what I love about Tesla and that’s why I bought one (and later, shares of the company). They take lunar pictures in many places. The interior of the Model 3 is extremely simple because it was built for a universe where you don’t drive. The same deal for the Model S and its integrated yoke and Smart Shift. You guys to have do crazy shit like that to make the future happen. “
Therefore, this commentator agrees that the names of the autopilot and “FSD” are “madly optimistic”, but he still thinks that this is something they “love at Tesla”.
At one point, the OP is asked “what is your purpose”, to which they respond
“The discussion about FSD status, timeframe and whether progress is reasonable has been made many times here and elsewhere. I think it usually turns into a screaming dispute between the two well-represented groups here, with the mass of people bordering Elon’s worshipers and those who feel wronged / misled by him. I experienced something very similar to that of an FB thread for my local Tesla owner’s group just two days ago.
I am trying to engage in a more careful assessment of what is happening from a non-technical perspective. In particular, I am trying to determine in my own mind whether what is happening here is reasonable and justifiable or if there is something nefarious going on. It is easy to make accusations or draw conclusions based on preconceived prejudices about this. I hope to be more factual about that. “
I tried to quote some important parts here, but I think that if you are remotely interested in the development of autonomy and Tesla in particular, this is a very interesting topic to read.
There is so much going on here, and so many questions raised. Is the “FSD” a genuinely serious project with real goals and results, or is it a scheme designed to make a lot of money without delivering anything?
Is it real, but just too late and suffering from Elon’s frequent assumptions and exaggerated promises? Like when he claimed that Teslas was valuing assets because they would soon be able to make money for their owners as autonomous robotáxis?
Could “FSD” pre-order buyers file a class action lawsuit if the promised funds were not delivered? Is Tesla protected from this? Would this harm the company?
There are so many questions and, in fact, there are not many answers, at least not yet. It is good that the discussion is going on, as all of these issues need to be addressed.