When did you realize that things were going wrong between you and President Trump?
It coincided with the rapid escalation of cases in the northeastern part of the country, particularly in the New York metropolitan area. I would try to express the gravity of the situation, and the president’s response has always been inclined to: “Well, it’s not that bad, right?” And I would say: “Yes, it is very bad”. It was almost a reflex response, trying to persuade him to minimize it. I’m not saying, “I want you to minimize this,” but, “Oh, really, was it that bad?”
And the other thing that made me very concerned was that it was clear that he was receiving information from people who were calling him, I don’t know who, people he knew from the business world, saying: “Hey, I heard about this drug , isn’t it great? ”Or,” Boy, this convalescent plasma is really phenomenal. ” And I would try, you know, to calmly explain that you find out if something works by doing an appropriate clinical trial; you get the information, you give a peer review. And he said, “Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, these things really work.”
He would take their opinion – not based on data, just anecdotes – seriously that something can really be important. It wasn’t just hydroxychloroquine, it was a variety of alternative medicine approaches. It was always: “A guy called me, a friend of mine blah blah blah.” That was when my anxiety started to increase.
Did you have problems with him in the first three years of your presidency?
No, he hardly knew who I was. The first time I met him was in September 2019, when I was asked to go to the White House, bring my lab coat and stay there while he signed an executive order on something about the flu. So, starting in January, February 2020, it was an intense involvement that went down to the White House very, very often.
There was a time last February when things changed. Alex Azar was commanding the White House Coronavirus Task Force and then suddenly Mike Pence was, and President Trump was on the podium answering questions and arguing with reporters. What happened?